Yes! No! Maybe so?
Forced seduction seems to be a hot button within the writing industry. More often than not you turn around and find some debate going on about whether or not it’s just wrong, wrong, wrong. Or hot, hot, hot.
Being the baby of Naughty and Spice, I’m not really sure when the trend for forced seduction began. Or what sparked the trend. Were writers inspired watching that horny little French skunk trying to woo the love of his life in what was obviously an aggressive manner?
The earliest I can recall is in the first books I picked up. Those fabulous ones from the 80’s. Where those deliciously wicked covers (Woman bent over some guy’s arm, her breasts exposed like a silicone coming out party) combined with some of the scenes inside got all romance novels labled bodice rippers.
To me forced seduction is exactly what it implies: the heroine (or hero) is seduced when they had originally been against the idea of having sex.
Some people say this is flat out being forced. I say, how? The key word is seduction. When forced seduction is done right, I finish the scene with the impression that both partners enjoyed the sex and formed a bond; despite any initial protests. There was a point in that character’s head, when they decided they wanted it. Sure, there may be regrets after, but I would think that even the character themselves would balk at calling it being forced.
Personally, I can tell the difference between forced seduction and just being forced. That line is pretty clear to me. There is no shift in the character’s head. You don’t see them finally give in or have that shift in their thoughts. They fight it the entire time. If the person is being forced, I finish the scene and feel a little bit ill. I don’t have that how romantic moment.
If you haven’t been able to tell yet from my post, I enjoy reading forced seductions. I think that it’s all part of the fantasy of romance. It may not–okay probably wouldn’t–work in real life, but it can make a book all that much more romantic and exciting. In a world where relationships can get a bit passive aggressive, these scenes in books can make your heart flutter a bit. Get the juices flowing.
But that’s just me. I like those scenes, and I know quite a few people don’t. I love to read them and have even written a few scenes in my books (usually the sci-fi’s). So I’m curious about you. What are your thoughts as a reader about forced seduction? And how about as a writer? Do you ever write them?
July 30th, 2007 at 2:49 am
It doesn’t float my boat but I’ve seen the concept done well and I’ve certainly seen it done so poorly that I couldn’t finish the book.
I personally couldn’t write a forced seduction.
July 30th, 2007 at 5:37 am
I think the reason people like forced seduction is that women, across time and across cultures, have had their sexuality controlled and limited. Not that men haven’t too, but women so often have been told that their sexual desires are wrong or dirty or evil. Good forced seduction scenes bring out the ambivalence about sex that women often have. On the one hand they want some sexy hero to sweep them off their feet and on the other they are ashamed of having that desire. So letting the hero take charge means they can let go of that conflict. It’s a knife edge subtlety and done badly can come across as something that’s not very seductive. I like it mainly in historicals where it often seems to make sense.
July 30th, 2007 at 7:40 am
I post a lot of stuff over at Literotica.
Currently, my most popular piece is one called ‘Librarian’. OK, I played with the stereotype.
But that can be fun sometimes.
According to my feedback I did a good job with the character. I wrote the seduction just right, got under her defenses and fired her up in a believable manner.
So I’ve got some experience with this subject.
And it’s such a fine line. Bad writing can slide past that line, make it unbelievable. Or worse, make it appear as rape.
As Keziah pointed out, it has much to do with the whole ‘Like sex? Bad girl!’ culture we live in. A good seduction allows the woman to let go of that, pass the responsibility for her pleasure to her seducer. I’m mixed about that. Every one should be able to enjoy pleasure.
But it’s sure fun seducing someone.
July 30th, 2007 at 9:08 am
Forced seduction was the norm in the romance novels I read growing up, in the 70’s and 80’s and it was probably the only socially acceptable way that a love scene could be written back then, before the “sexual revolution” etc — of course, now we have liberation, Sex and the City, etc and women can take control and do what they want with fewer recriminations. When did that turn happen in romance - maybe late 80s? early 90s?
So, now it comes down to plot and proper motivations. I have a semi-forced seduction in Fascination, and I think the main thrust of the issue is that it’s got to be clear that both characters are on board, but they’re giving in to some kind of tension that’s been existing. Or, in domination scenarios, it’s a kind of sex play.
I did read a Spice with a domination theme that didn’t work for me at all — put the book down - because the implication (in fact, it might not have been implied, I think it was actually literal) was that the heroine had to be drugged in some way to be “loosened up.” That, to me, is crossing the line. And in our culture now, “no means no” has to stick, even in romance novels, no matter what the scenario. In the old days, where “no, don’t” was ignored because the hero “knew better” — can’t do that anymore and get away with it, IMO. Except maybe in historicals, yes.
So… I guess it all depends. Well done, well motivated, then sure, but otherwise, it will border on offensive or anachronistic…
Sam
July 30th, 2007 at 9:58 am
I have a morning talk show on as I’m reading this, and they are touching upon a related topic.
As their guest said (a guy who wrote a book about sex or something), what positive word do we have for a woman who is sexually active? Who enjoys her sexuality? Who thinks about sex, pursues sex. The audience had a hard time coming up with one.
Whether we want to accept it or not, our culture has taught us certain things about sex. Women are in a weird position where they want to enjoy sex, and own their sexuality, but those deep down reservations hold them back. Even post Sex and the City. This is why forced seduction is one of the more popular and powerful fantasies for women. In a way, the “forced” element takes away the guilt.
Some of the first romance novels I read were forced seduction stories. I loved them, and I still do. I also write them. Yes, it is a very thin line, between a believable forced seduction scene and one that doesn’t work. But when well written, they are SO yummy!
July 30th, 2007 at 11:03 am
I think forced seduction can be done with unwritten permission. I use this sometimes when writing about the relationship between a Master and his submissive- there is unvoiced permission and a way to stop the seduction if the woman so wishes.
In a story where the woman had no say whatso ever I would say no, it shouldn’t be used.
Kissa
July 30th, 2007 at 11:10 am
I get your point. And I have to say I occasionally read them, but I think a good seduction is a good seduction there doesn’t need to be “no! No! NO! YES!” It makes me very uncomfortable. Why? Because there is enough grey in society and where guys hear about these things and think “If I just keep forcing she’ll give in”
Can I tell the difference between forced seduction and force? Absolutely. Do I think everyone can? particularly the young male of the species? Probably not.
Good topic though!
July 30th, 2007 at 11:22 am
I think they are most believable in historicals—and I really enjoy them when done well. I guess I am fortunate that I haven’t read any that were not well written. Most recently, Anna Campbell’s CLAIMING THE COURTESAN was embroiled in this controversy, and I have to say that it is probably one of the best books I have ever read. You know, the ones that go on the shelf of books that you DON’T lend to people for fear they won’t be returned? That good.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:28 am
Great topic. I’m just starting a WIP which may rely heavily on forced seduction and I’m wondering how it will go over. I know some readers love the idea and some hate it and I prefer not to offend, but I think a forced seduction, if done properly can be very sexy. If the heroine really wants to be seduced, but has social or moral hang ups, it’s one thing. If she really isn’t turned on by the seducer until after or during the sex, then it’s something else entirely. JMHO
July 30th, 2007 at 12:10 pm
You know, I think one of the tricks is that any “forced” seduction needs to be from the POV of the heroine, so we can know her thoughts in process. That should smooth over any doubts on the part of the reader, and show she’s into it, even if she was reluctant?
Very interesting on lack of word for a sexually aggressive female — seductress? Honestly, I don’t find any of the male equivalents very flattering to men, either (horndog? playboy?) though sexual expression is more celebrated or acceptable in men, for sure.
Sam
July 30th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
The thing I enjoy about the fantasy of forced seduction — and it is a fantasy — is that the hero knows (either through keen observation or paranormal awareness) what the heroine wants/needs/can’t admit. Having a man be that aware of you and your needs, to the point where he knows more about you than you’re comfortable with him knowing or more than you even know about yourself, is the real fantasy.
In reality, most men are so self-absorbed or intimidated or just plain bumfuzzled by women, we practically have to draw them a diagram showing them what we need. Of course, we’re very confusing and we capitalize on that fact, but the idea that some man could cut through all our bullshit to see our most intimate needs and have the guts to fulfill them whether we think we’re ready or not is extremely intoxicating.
The reality of the jerk in the bar whose six shots of Johnny Black have convinced him our NO really means YES is what I think the opponents of forced seduction stories are worried about, but these are our fantasies and we shouldn’t have to worry about crap like booze-fueled jerks in them.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
And note, I said most men. I’m sure there are a few who are keenly aware of women and their needs, though I don’t know any personally.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
OK, I’ll be the naysayer here and I’m not ashamed to dissent. I hate forced seduction. Hate it, hate it, hate it. The only time it EVER works for me is in a historical (and even then I hate it).
I honestly have no idea how it could ever possibly work in a contemporary.
Besides, if deep down she really does want it but is afraid to admit it, then she’s not really being “forced”, now is she? She’s merely being seduced.
It’s the “forced” term that I can’t abide. And I’m with Dana, it just helps to give rise to the idea that “no” doesn’t really mean “no.”
July 30th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
I’m with Amanda on this. It’s totally not my cuppa. And if it’s something she wants, even if it’s deep down inside, it’s not forced, then.
If she doesn’t want it, and no part of her wants sex at that moment, it’s rape.
Totally my JMHO.
July 30th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
I think this is why BDSM books are so popular right now, and why most of these stories feature women submissives. Through BDSM, either in real life or fantasy, a woman can give into her deepest desire to be totally under another’s control, to give up power. Women really do feel responsible for everything, and that’s why I believe so many women fantasize about totally giving up control.
Obviously, not every woman needs something so extreme, but romance novels are, in large part, escapism. And not every women has submissive tendencies. But a lot of us do. There is something very freeing about letting go, having another person know what you need, a need some of us can’t admit-even to ourselves. In I sense, I guess I think BDSM books can be modern day forced seduction stories. The difference is that we know from the get-go that there is an agreement between the players, that the heroine has chosen to give over that power.
July 30th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
I personally love them when they are done correctly. I agree with Robin and Tawny. It is a thin line, and one that can only be walked by those authors that are able to understand the underlying fantasy well enough to portray it in the scene.
July 30th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
Hmmm…here’s a question about BDSM and forced seduction–if she’s choosing a BDSM lifestyle, can you really say she’s being “forced” into anything, then? Even when she’s under someone’s control, she’s purposefully, intentionally chosen that. Would you call it forced seduction in that case? Or would it be termed something else?
I’m just curious…
July 30th, 2007 at 3:04 pm
Hm–Okay, I can try reading comprehension (LOL)…I see the last sentence or so of your post, Lillian, addresses what I wrote–the readers and characters all know in BDSM that this is a chosen desire.
July 30th, 2007 at 3:46 pm
Hey sorry I’m chimming in late to reply to everyone, I was out of town!
I agree that it works best in historical, or you know, sci fi which I’m writing now which can have a historical feel. I also think Lill has a point. BDSM has become a good outlet for it.
It is a thin line, but it’s a clear one to me. I can see it. I agree people either love it or hate it. Both with equal passion. I guess it’s also because it was what I was raised on.
I focus on the word seduction instead of forced. Because yes deep down she wants it, I know that about the heroine before he touches her. The force in forced seducion makes the heroine (or hero) really pushes them to be seduced. Otherwise it would be forced sex. Not forced seduction.
Maybe I make no sense. I’m a wee bit tired.
July 30th, 2007 at 4:01 pm
Forced seductions don’t usually work for me, because even if, deep down, the heroine wants it, unless the hero is a mind reader, he can’t really know that. To me it just plays into the whole excuse I’ve heard from many rapists (having been a rape crisis counselor), that even if a woman says no, she doesn’t really mean it. That he just *knew* she wanted it, he could just *tell*.
Frankly, I don’t find a hero who values his own sexual satisfaction more than the wishes of the heroine (sure, maybe her body is ready for sex, but maybe her mind isn’t ready, whether it’s because of societal strictures in a historical, or what have you–and aren’t the heroine’s thoughts/feelings just as important as her body’s responses?) to be sexy. And that’s how most of the forced seductions I’ve come across read to me.
There are a few exceptions, like if actual psychological reasons are given for the force, and if the hero actually redeems himself from his earlier ways.
But that’s just what works/doesn’t work for me, of course.
July 30th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
Lillian says:
“In I sense, I guess I think BDSM books can be modern day forced seduction stories. The difference is that we know from the get-go that there is an agreement between the players, that the heroine has chosen to give over that power.”
________________________________________
And IMO, that’s a BIG and very important difference and is one reason why I don’t have a problem with BDSM books, yet I have a problem with forced seduction. You know from the start that the submissive has made this choice and there are certain ground rules, whereas in a non-BDSM “force” scenario? *shakes head* I just can’t see how being forced into doing something you don’t want to do (and if deep down she really does want to do it, she’s not really being forced), but I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.
July 30th, 2007 at 6:51 pm
And I certainly respect everyone’s difference in opinion. I was just curious to see the variety of view points that would come up with the discussion.
July 30th, 2007 at 7:41 pm
Great topic Shelli! I have to admit I don’t mind a forced seduction when it’s done right (i.e. Claiming the Courtesan) and I do think it fits better when it’s in a historical. Of course I never want to see a rape pretending to be a forced seduction and luckily enough I don’t think I’ve ever run into one of those.
And yes because I read a lot of them when I was younger they don’t bother me so much. They were so popular in the 80s historicals!
I’m happy to see how everyone is discussing this nicely. I love to read everyone’s opinions - and glad I don’t have to do this
July 31st, 2007 at 4:42 pm
hmm . . .I don’t know that I ever noticed anything being forced–as you mean it anyway. I guess I get more wrapped up in the seduction portion and done well. . . well then the author has done a good job!
then again–I may not have read anything as intense as you’re describing in this.
July 31st, 2007 at 7:57 pm
Hey Dennie! I’m wondering the same thing. Some of the scenes I’ve considered ‘forced seductions’ as I later discussed with someone, aren’t what they’d consider forced seduction. So maybe the whole forced seduction thing is a big grey area, like someone else said.